Jasmin Shokrian: In Detail
Tuesday, May 19, 2009 at 8:57 PM 
Photo by Yuri Gripas / Reuters
Is it just us, or does Mrs. O's wardrobe grow more exciting by the day? The recent introduction of new names and aesthetics thoroughly delights. One such fabulous example: Jasmin Shokrian.
Last week Mrs. O wore a skirt by the L.A. based designer for her appearance in front of the Corporation for National and Community Service.
Trained at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago in film, sculpture and painting, Ms. Shokrian infuses her varied artistic background into her designs.
Podium-pained, we were unable to get a clear view of Mrs. O's skirt, but intrigued by its description: “The fabric is primarily a vintage double silk crepe. The sheer part of the skirt is a band of handmade caught burlap thread encased in silk chiffon and navy silk charmeuse stripes juxtaposed with bands of natural cotton muslin.”
Fortunately, Ms. Shokrian had a collection photo on hand (pictured after the jump), which gives us a better sense of the wonderful detail in this piece. She was also so kind to answer a few of our questions:
Q: Mrs. O's skirt is part of your A/W 2009 collection. What was the inspiration?
JS: For me, this season was about elements of craft mixed with something futuristic. I often piece together narratives to create an imaginary story and work from that. It may be a difficult time for the world, but when we look back I think we'll find that it was a great time of evolution and creativity. This is was really got me thinking about the mix of heritage hand-crafted items and more sleek futuristic aspects. We can slow down a little and take a deeper look at what we are capable of doing and what really makes us happy. I wanted to look at all of these elements, textures I am drawn to and the feelings art can bring us.
Q: What made you mix burlap and silk chiffon, muslin and silk charmeuse?
JS: I often like to incorporate "high and low" textures, but honestly I just felt it was more symbolic at this time. I love to play with the associations that different fabrics have. Muslin and burlap are working fabrics and a bit humble, rough and architectural by association, especially in comparison to silks and delicate fabrics like chiffon. The juxtaposition is what I'm interested in. I feel it's kind of a reflection of our everyday lives. A detailed collection photo of the Jasmin Shokrian skirt follows after the jump.
Image used with kind permission from Jasmin Shokrian
Jasmin Shokrian in Outfits
Reader Comments (116)
OperaFanatic,
I don't know of anyone who's contributed to this dialogue very often who hasn't been misunderstood a time or two, and we've all been "pounced" on as a result. I certainly have been. It's the nature of the beast. But if you enjoy the site, you should feel free to contribute, and I say the more opinions the better. I think the better solution (rather than dropping out or reverting to "lurking," which sounds so sinister haha) is just to work on how you say things. Try to view the things you write from the viewpoint of a random reader who doesn't know you and has no other information by which to interpret what you're saying than just the words on the screen. Everyone's had to go through this process, and I for one am glad I stuck around, because I think the "group" has grown in tolerance, patience, and cohesiveness a great deal over the past couple of months. And we have almost four years (or 8!) to go, so who knows what will happen. Hope you stick around.
Operafanatic, I don't think anyone has a problem with people offering their take, but it's all in the detail. You made a statement that didn't sit well with many, including myself. How can one say they're ready for the First Lady to stay at home? Michelle practically does that everyday! It was a comment that seemed to be crossing the line.
Michelle is a dynamic, young woman with tremendous appeal and is our First Black First Lady. Naturally, I expect her to receive undue media coverage, no matter how intrusive. We live in a 24-hour news cycle and the Obamas are a hot commodity. Whether Michelle sneaks out for a burger, visits the museum or attends a major political event, the media will cover it. Just like Pres. Obama, Michelle has a permanent press pool following her whenever she leaves the White House. She has no control over this. Is MO to stay at home b/c of her new lifestyle? I certainly don't think it's fair suggestion. I also don't see Michelle as 'glitzy' just b/c she looks dam good. Her lilac outfit the other day shouldn't be considered a 'glitzy' ensemble. There was nothing 'glitzy' about it. If anyone grows tired of Michelle, they don't have to look at her. Change the channel or don't come to sites dedicated to her and her clothing. It's only overexposure if you let it get to you. The First Lady shouldn't stifle her busy life b/c the public has issues with it.
I've seen Michelle gets criticized for whatever she does. She can't be too cute or too strong, too sexy or too dowdy, too happy or too serious. She can't be too daring whether it's with policy or can't dedicate the majority of her time to her very young children. Michelle's clothes are either too bright, too black, over embellished, plain, 'ill fitting,' shows her womanly body, etc. No other First Lady has ever been this watched, this documented, this critiqued. I believe her presence elicits a lot of emotions from people, emotions they didn't even know they had. A number of people feel discomfort with her doing even the most basic of tasks. I think Michelle being this attractive, tall, curvy, mocha skinned Black woman who doesn't fit into any historical or recent stereotype is unusual to most and they struggle finding a place for Michelle; they can't quite peg who she is. Michelle's a woman who can where many hats, a truly multifaceted person. She's a loving mother, an accomplished woman (Princeton, Harvard, lawyer and former hospital executive? Geez...), a dedicated wife whose relationship with her husband causes most to blush, and now First Lady. Imagine, all this by 45! She represents so much for so many people! And b/c of her wonderful qualities and resume, Michelle can attract petty jealousies, projected expectations, fantasies and unwarranted hate. It's quite difficult to be Michelle, and she handles it beautifully.
I got so caught up in the other discussion that I forgot to comment on the skirt. I think it's a true work of art: mixture of color, texture, line, shape. I also love the combining of high-low materials. Great piece! And I'll add my thanks to Mrs. T for expanding our experience by including the interview with the designer. Great work!
Some really good points Bianca, & some food for thought...
Ms. Shokrian is clearly a very talented woman & here's hoping she gets much exposure and patronage from being put in the spotlight by Mrs Obama..
OOOO Bianca, You are so right.
This statement can't be more valid "She represents so much for so many people! And b/c of her wonderful qualities and resume, Michelle can attract petty jealousies, projected expectations, fantasies and unwarranted hate. It’s quite difficult to be Michelle, and she handles it beautifully.
Cocktail party tonight at the White House! Cannot wait for the photos.
Bianca,
I believe OperaFanatic did NOT cross any lines.
He/she stated his/her opinion and it is a valid point. Over exposure is something that one must keep an eye on.
To the other people on this website,
I find it in very bad taste that Michelle's skin color is always brought up when defining/describing her. No one goes around describing Hillary Clinton as a pale-creamy White woman.
And also there are a lot of very CURVY white and hispanic women out there too. Not all black women have curves - the stereotyping on this website is what is starting to cross the line.
@Hyde Parker and Posh - I LOVE that pleated jacket in the Shokrian collection - I was thinking that MO would look positively gorgeous in it with her height to show off the pleats.
River Rush - you are sweet. If I were to choose a dress in Mrs. O's collection for another official portrait, my sentimental favorite would be the teal dress with the brooch that she wore at the DNC when she gave her speech. I say that because that's when Mrs. O captured my heart and soul.
It was her first chance to address millions of people with all eyes on her, and she was a vision, to me, in that dress. The color was vibrant and flattering; the lines of the dress were simple, and that brooch was an "aha" moment - how ingenious!
I was not following MO on TV or the internet until I started working for the Obama campaign during the summer. I saw her in her purple Maria Pinto, and was taken with her summer frocks, but really connected to Mrs. O when she gave that simple and elegant speech. So, the teal dress is iconic to me, and that is the dress I see her in when I close my eyes.
Speaking of regular bloggers, I am really missing Chicagoan. If you are reading this, I hope all is well with you. I am imagining you working in your family's apple orchards waiting for the honey crisps to form.
Leah D., agree with you 100%.
An article from Style.com on Michelle in NYC
http://www.style.com/peopleparties/parties/scoop/newyork-051809_ABT_Gala/?mbid=sn
Leah D...you are absolutely correct.
Leah, Operafanatic said he/she was ready for Michelle to stay at home and that he/she needed Michelle to take a week off from the glitz. How is that a valid point? Saying a grown woman, the First Lady at that, should stay home and take a week of from the glitz, for whatever that means? That isn't something anyone should suggest.
And if I may add to your other point, just like Michelle's weight, body type is brought up in descriptions, her skin color will as well. But unlike her weight and body type, Michelle's skin color does not apply to White women. This is the major distinction between her and other First Ladies. This is not bad taste at all, even Michelle recognizes and discusses it. And given every post on this board, her skin color has not always been brought up. With regards to Hillary Clinton, the country never had a problem with her skin color. This country has never told women who looked like Hillary they're unattractive, gross, evil, whatever. It is unrealistic not to bring up Michelle's skin color when we discuss the significance of her appeal in this role. Just the other day CNN.com had an article describing how African and East Indian women look up to Michelle b/c of her color. This is the world we live in! I would think a site about Mrs. Obama wouldn't mind this topic being addressed, a topic not as personal and never as offensive like Michelle's 'mom tummy' conversation. Just b/c some Whites, Latinos, Asians and even Blacks feel uncomfortable with the observations it doesn't mean it's wrong or out of place.
P.S. I haven't seen any poster state White and Hispanic women weren't curvy. Nor did anyone profess that only Black women were. You're the one stereotyping.
You have all been very sweet, and it is much appreciated. Believe it or not, this entire dust up was not even close to the worst part of my day. My "I'm out of here moment" occurred when I thought, If being OperaFanatic is the fun part of your day, you need to rethink your choices.
Leah D said what I meant far better than I did (well, that's pretty obvious) when she said she too wanted to see more pictures of Michelle "walking Bo or piddling around her vegetable garden." But we all know those pictures are recorded by hundreds of photographers. That's why I said the picture of her the day she went for a burger unexpectedly was my current favorite. There may have been more pictures, but the only one I saw looked like it was taken by someone's phone - I couldn't even see her face. You are all correct that she is trailed day and night by photographers, but that little moment looked accidental and I loved it for that. I did think, Gosh, can't she even sneak out for a burger without a crowd? And, of course, the answer is No.
Her clothes, makeup, hair, incredibly moisturized skin, etc. etc. are endlessly fascinating to me and everyone who reads this site, but it seems we all are drawn to her because she successfully carves out a private life in the midst of this whirlwind she lives in. I don't know how she does it, but I admire her tremendously for doing so.
Anyway, thanks for encouraging me to continue to contribute. I will do so with care. (I have reread this post about 100 times - it seems okay to me, but who knows??)
Glad to see you back OperaFanatic---tomorrow's another day!
@ Leah D- I think it is often our AA sisters who proudly refer to Mrs. O's mocha skin, because they love it, and so do many of us white woman. I think it's brought up to celebrate it, to talk about how great her skin looks with the colors she wears, etc. I love it when people refer to her Mocha skin. I think we had this conversation before. It is not racist to acknowledge honestly the color of someone's skin. People want to be seen and appreciated for who they are, including the color of their skin.
OperaFanatic - It's good to see you back.
The American Experience on PBS is showcasing the Kennedy family and Jackie is being discussed now.
just wanted to share an article:
http://www(dot)huffingtonpost(dot)com/carl-sferrazza-anthony/first-ladys-first-100-day_b_192786.html
Bevi,
Thank you for the heads up!
I love watching shows regarding our lovely creamy-white skinned former First Lady.
Speaking of the Kennedy's - I read yesterday that the WHITE skinned MALE Chris Kennedy (the son of the late WHITE skinned MALE Robert F. Kennedy) is going to announce next week that he is going to run for U.S. Senator of Illinois against BLACK skinned MALE Roland Burris.
-----
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Michelle is not being judged by the color of her skin. She is being celebrated for being our first African American First Lady. An AA sister on this blog was the first to let us know that her skin was Mocha.
Leah D,
I am sorry if you took offense at me posting information about the Kennedys.
I did not mean to offend anyone, including you. We have had numerous postings over the months that connect Jackie's sense of fashion and style to Mrs. O's. Not only that, but President Obama is an admirer of Jack Kennedy, and extremely close to Sen. Ted Kennedy.
It was an innocent posting in which I intended to give information to people on this blog who are interested in the Presidency from a historical perspective.
So please give me some space to post without being unfairly criticized. I had not even read the previous posts when I put that info on.
Leah D Like Willow said she is not being judged by her skin color she is being admired. There is a big difference. Nothing is wrong with AA women being proud to see a woman that looks like them and just being excited to see that. It’s the same feeling women get when they see someone like Hilary Clinton in such a high position. It’s empowering to see someone you identify with in such a high position. My youngest sister was just talking about how happy she is that Malia had twists like her. Things like this are cause for celebration and should be discussed. I’m sorry you somehow take offense to this but this kind of talk is not going away and frankly I don’t see why it should.
I have a kind of different skin tone question. While at the Mall the other day I wandered into Bare Escentuals. A perfectly beautiful salesperson gave me her pitch. I admit she looked flawless. I am 46 and have some 'flaws' to cover up. Anyone on here tried it? Love it, Hate it??
Dear Bevi - you offended no one by considerately letting us know about the program on the Kennedys. Your message was very much appreciated.
I don't know if Leah D will come on to explain herself, but it appears to me that she took your announcement and used it to mock and exaggerate the use of the word Mocha when describing our beautiful first Lady. I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong, right Leah D? Thank you.
Bevi,
I thought your comment was great. I added the info about Chris Kennedy running for the senate seat in Illinois because I like the Kennedy family too!
As far as my 'white male' references - I am going to do that from now on because apparently it is the 'in thing' to do now to celebrate our skin colors. I hope that all the creamy-white posters here will celebrate their skin color on a daily bases too.
It had nothing to do with what you had said.
Signed,
Olive skinned Italian-Amercian
Willow,
I am mocking no one.
I am celebrating the fact that the Kennedys are White Americans. If we are going to celebrate the fact of being black/mocha here then it should be also okay to celebrate white skinned American presidential families too.
Leah D - thank you for your clarification.
P.S. I don't want anyone to interpret my appreciation of Leah D's clarification as my condoning what she intends to do. White presidents are not unique, and don't need this distinction, in my opinion. Black presidents in the US are unique. If a white person were elected or appointed president of an African nation, and they had not had a white president since their independence, referring to the white president as white would seem reasonable. It's the uniqueness that makes one want to repeat and celebrate the breakthrough.
Leah D I like 90% of the comments and contributions you have made to the Mrs.O site since my time visiting so I'm not going to take complete offense to your recent comments. That being said we all realize you are mocking the "mocha-skinned" comments made earlier and I think you need to understand that for hundreds of years dark skin in the U.S. and even all over the world was not celebrated or thought of as beautiful. Now here we have a gorgeous first lady who is a black woman with dark skin and people, not just African-Americans, but people the world over are using adjectives like beautiful, smart, intelligent, glamorous etc. to describe her. For many black women and women of color this is an exciting and wonderful thing that has never been witnessed in recent history so sometimes we do bring up her beautiful "mocha" skin because it is so fascinating to see how our world has evolved to the point where the black woman can be the pretty one in the room that everyone admires, so to speak. Celebrating "white, milky" skin ,as you put it, is something that has been done since the beginning of American history. 99% of the icons of American beauty have been white women with yes, white skin. I understand the underlying statement you are trying to make but please understand where some of us are coming from in terms of the treatment of women of color through out history because of their skin color.
Wow @ Leah D. I have to say I am very disappointed in your lack of understanding of how black women feel to have a black First Lady. You will never know what it feels like to be told you are ugly because your skin is dark, or your features aren't European. You will never know what it feels like to only have objects of beauty considered long-haired, fair-skinned women for decades and decades. For you to not only mock the happiness that black women feel about Mrs. O being celebrated - it really made me lose my breath while I read your last few comments. You always struck me as someone much more introspective and understanding.
But alas, you don't see color, so no one should and you will be sure to make sure of that - no matter how belittling you come across.
OMG, you guys are funny. This whole thread is confrontational from start to finish.
I was gonna stay away from the drama, but since it seems that the conversations are being held by sane intellectual women who just have different opinions and not trolls this is my two cents.
Operafanatic- I don't think meant any harm. Take solace in this I was barked upon like last week for bringing up a current event that was close to Michelle's heart. Because it nothing to do with fashion.
Most people on this sight are fiercly protective of Michelle(shes our friend in our head), they are not afraid to let you have it if they think shes being slighted. I would hope people would pause before chewing someone up and ask the poster to clarify before going in, out for blood.lol Most of the time the comment is misinterpreted. I would like to see spontaneous Mrs. O sightings as well. But I realize the quiet moments are just that, her time with her family. And so we are privy to her public events(which usually don't last that long), but string it all together on a website and it may seem as overload but there is more than a balance of family time that we just don't see. As we saw with the flickr photos of her sledding with her kids in the snow, the family together in the Prez office and such. We get glimpses of their family life but the public Michelle is more visible than the private Michelle. Which is how it should be, unless they'll star in a reality show. lol And so we enjoy the glimpses that we are allowed, and take comfort in the fact that her family is happy and whole, which allows her to brace the critism and compliments that come with such a public role.
Be warned! There are Republican racist will come on the site and start trouble. Don't feed the trolls, for they are hateful of the Obamas.
Some of the comments here amaze me.
Yes, the Obamas are African-American and I believe President Obama will be one of our greatest presidents in U.S. history. I have celebrated the fact that America has a president of color but that is not his main defining quality, at least not to me.
Willow said: "White presidents are not unique"
In my opinion they are 'all' unique if one is judging them on their character and accomplishments and not by their skin color.
Ari, Yes Michelle is beautiful, smart, intelligent, glamorous - and I have even said so before in several comments that I have posted. But I also realize that Michelle is not the first woman of 'mocha' skin color that has been in the public eye that happens to be a gorgeous woman.
IVA, I truly am not mocking anyone. I have seen many comments on other threads on this website celebrating 'blackness' such as 'Black is Beautiful' etc. and I just think it is fair to say that White, Yellow, Brown, etc. is beautiful too.
We should be celebrating diversity and the color of all people's skin. If not then we will be in the same boat as in the 40s and 50s as when 'only' white was celebrated.
But it has to work in an equal way.
If we are going to end racial division then it must stop on all sides. I find it interesting that there are 'Black Music Awards' .. people would be in an uproar if there was a show titled 'The White Music Awards'. There are also 'Black Movie Awards' .. people would also be in an uproar if we had a 'White Music Awards' that excluded people of other colors. And there is BET Black Entertainment Television .. image if there was a station actually called WET 'White Entertainment Television.
As the 'whites' become more inclusive and striving for equality for all I see that other cultures still want to be separate. As America moves forward I am hoping that all people look at both sides of the story and look at 'words' look. We still have a long way to go until we have One Nation/One People and color does not play a part in defining a person in the eyes of others.
pat,
I don't know if you are referring to me but I am a democrat, an Obama supporter, and I love the Obama family.
I posted a comment in response to Ari and IVA but for some reason it went into moderation. Anyway I did respond, so maybe it will show up tomorrow.
Good night to all.
Speaking of Mrs. O with the ponytail running out for the hamburger sighting, has anyone found any other pictures besides that one long shot which looks like it was taken from a cellphone.
The transparency of the Obama administration as a whole is a like a graduate course in political science. This site about our FLOTUS is a like lesson in style and fashion. The causes that Michelle support exposes the different choices available to become more involved in community service.
All that said, I believe my first lady addiction is very educational. But by far this is definitely my favorite site.
I love it all, the glitz, the glam, the ponytails, the sneakers, learning about the non-mainstream high end designers and all the varying opinions with all the back and forth...I'm addicted and proud.
The outfit that I would like to see Michelle in if sher were to redo her official picture would be either the in a Narciso Rodriguez dress from the Vogue's eight-page spread or the J Crew peach cardigan, blouse and skirt from the same Vogue spread.
Pat, I don't think they are Republican racists, your reaching.
On Michelle's skin color I think the mention of her skin tone is in a celebratory fashion, I don't see as a slight to white Americans at all.
I would hope Leah D would explain why she feels the way she does. Trying to see it purely from Leah D's perspective, I don't want to speak for her but maybe her underlying irritance in it all is that she feels as if taking into factor Michelle's skin tone discounts the connection she may feel toward Michelle or she believes the awesomeness that is Michelle Obama is unrelated to her race but to her character and to focus so much on race neglects the person in lieu of the skin color.
I don't know just playing Devil's advocate, or professor, or moderator. There is several people that agree with Leah D I wish they would explain why they feel so.
Susan Rice UN ambassador has been influenced by "the belt"
http://www.style.com/vogue/feature/2009_June_Susan_Rice/
Joane,
I typed out a long explanation and it went into m oderation.
Check back tomorrow!
I totally agree, Willow at 10:18. I've read many on this site describe Michelle as mocha, I think it's very accurate and cute. It led me to distinguish that characteristic about Michelle using this particular term. Her skin: the color, the texture... it stands out! She is mocha and it's beautiful! Some acknowledge it b/c of their racial/cultural pride and fight against colorism, some b/c of her skin's contrast to theirs, others for its visual impression against certain fabrics, a multitude of reasons. I have no problem pointing it out with White women as well. I frequently comment on how pretty Dita Von Teese's complexion is, especially against the black and blood reds she tends to wear. This is a reality.
To Leah and all who may be interested: please google "brown paper bag test" it will provide all an understanding of the "mocha" reference.
Not sure if this will get past moderation, but here you go:
brown paper bag test 163 up, 24 down
An actual test, along with the so-called ruler test in common use in the the early 1900s among upper class Black American societies and families to determine if a Black person was sufficiently white to gain admittance or acceptance. If your skin was darker than a brown paper bag, you did not merit inclusion. Thousands of Black institutions including the nation's most eminent Black fraternity -- Phi Alpha Phi, Howard Univiersity, and numerous church and civic groups all practiced this discriminiation. The practice has 19th Century antecedants with the Blue Blood Society and has not totally died out.
Zora Neal Hurston was the first well known writer to air this strange practice in a public. The practice is now nearly universally condemned (at least in public) as being an example of "colorism". Particularly cogent modern day critiques can be found in Kathy Russell's "The Color Complex", Tony Morrion's "The Bluest Eye" (an Ophrey Book Club choice) and Marita Golden's "Don't Play in the Sun." The best known send-up of the pactice, however, is Spike Lee's scathing and hilarious 1988 movie, "School Daze."
"Though the brown paper bag test is antiquated and frowned upon as a shameful moment in African-American history, the ideals behind the practice still lingers in the African-American community" -- Rivea Ruff, BlackCollegeView.Com
Leah D has always being quite overbearing, but she's gotten increasingly and unnecessarily combative and obnoxious.
Quite a shame because she was once quite fun.
LeahD has always being quite overbearing, but she’s gotten increasingly and unnecessarily combative and obnoxious.
Quite a shame because she was once quite fun.
Okay, I don't know how cool it is to talk about people like they're not "in the room," so to speak.
And Leah D, come on now. I've listened to your previous thoughts on this topic and I've tried to respond respectfully, but it seems like you're not giving any of the other board participants the same respect and responding to what they're saying.
I know from previous discussions where you're coming from with this, but I think your seeming commitment to some sort of faux "race blindness" is making you act like there are NO differences at all between black people and white people, and there are. Sorry, that's just life. Just like there are differences in this history between Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans, Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews, etc. The fact that black people sometimes have a different perspective on Michelle Obama, which includes a celebration of skin color on some occasions, doesn't make us bad. It just makes us *different.* If you wanted to celebrate Michelle in part because she shared your Italian heritage, who am I to say differently?
Let's just all take a deep breath. How did a thread about a skirt turn into this?
I have not been posting for a long long time but everyday I have followed the threads...Being on a different time zone, it means staying in front of the screen at weirdest hours, but I don't mind,it's like a special rendez vous I have with all of you, ladies...If I do that, it's certainly because Michelle is such an inspiring person, and please, that means ALL OF HER (ponytail and high fashion and hugs and speeches and being the first AA first lady )
I have learned a lot following your comments,(the horrendous brown paper bag test ), but please try not to jump at each other's throat. Let's enjoy the diversity and the good stuff.
First Lady gets her first Time Magazine cover! "The Meaning of Michelle Obama." http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1900067-1,00.html
It's a great article. Great insight into who she is and life with her lovely family in the White House.
I also love the black and white photo of her.
Enjoy!
I posted a comment 15 minutes ago with information on FLOTUS' Time Magazine cover article, but it's still "awaiting moderation." I wasn't aware this was a moderated site. I'm sure there are good reasons for that.
Anyway, here's the link again: http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1900067-1,00.html
MSNBC just announced that Mrs. O is on the cover of Time Magazine, and the headline banner is "The Meaning of Michelle".
Can't wait!
Hi
I was coming on to share the news about the new Time cover story on MO but see Bevi has just done that. Can't wait either !!